The Russo Bros. indicated that two Mondays after opening weekend was time enough to have a spoilery discussion, so that’s when I started this. Of course, there’s been a lot out there already, but I haven’t had a chance to mention any of it, so …
I still stand by my initial, somewhat gushing review of the movie. To be sure, a lot of people have pointed out a number of flaws and opined a number of ways that the movie didn’t do all it could have, or even (gasp) disappointed. So I want to tackle some of those items.
But first … SPOILERS BELOW!
I did manage to stay under the radar for spoilage on the movie — hurriedly passing by headlines to articles featuring “informed speculation” and the like, eschewing trailers for the last month or so, and so forth. Marvel did a great job as well of keeping things under wraps as well, esp. from the actors, often with redacted or misleading scripts.
My favorite story along those lines comes from Sebastian Stan (Bucky/Winter Soldier), who says that when they filmed the funeral scene, they were told it was a wedding (even though no bride and groom were present — hey, it’s a film shoot, they’ll be added in later). Presumably they took footage of people looking happy, applauding, laughing at a comment, as well as (actually used) looking solemn and sober.
My second favorite tale of this sort is Anthony Mackie, Falcon, who was chatting at Chris Evans’ place, and when Chris learned Mackie didn’t know about that final scene, got to be the one to run off to get his copy of the script to show him.
The Characters
Okay, on to the discussion of the movie. And I’m going to do this by discussing the individual characters and their story arcs here.
Iron Man
It all started with Iron Man, and Tony Stark (as played by the equally-redeemed Robert Downey, Jr) has been the centerpiece of all things Avengers and, in many ways, MCU.
The character’s arc here is marvelous. While Tony+Pepper have run hot and cold at times in different movies, what’s been there pays off with their relationship, and their kid Morgan. This is the family that that Tony would have, and deserves.
Tony’s love-hate relationship with his ego and creativity finally reach a climax with multiple offers to solve problems that he can’t refuse, after a delicious set of scenes where his overwhelming feeling of loss and failure drive him away from his friends and society post-Snapocalypse. “I lost the kid” is the epitaph he chooses for himself on his return to Earth. That he then puts on the line losing love he has since found, and then life itself, to save the world and his friends and “the kid,” fulfils the challenge that Cap made to him back in the first Avengers movie.
Downey’s contract is done, but he’s indicated he might be interested in further MCU bits — perhaps in the well-worn trope of Tony-as-snarky-AI for some successor suit-wearer. I’m cool with that, with Tony Stark laid to a well-earned hero’s rest.
(And that said, I’m hoping we haven’t seen the last of Pepper and Morgan.)
Captain America
Cap’s another heroic figure who takes a very different (if also traditional) hero’s path, not to self-sacrificing death, but well-earned reward. On one level this is fitting for his perpetual role as a man out of time, a person who sacrifices any normal life during his heroic career, and then, the opportunity presenting, retires to the domestic bliss he’s long dreamed of.
Nevertheless, this has been one of the more controversial points in the movie after the initial feel-good reaction is peeled away. Bearing in mind that time travel is involved, and parallel worlds, the fundamental problem of Steve Rogers retiring to a quiet life is that he’s now aware of exactly what a shit show is in store over the next seventy years. He knows that Hydra has infiltrated SHIELD and the loss of life and damage to the nation that will cause (and that’s beyond just the events in Winter Soldier; in that movie Arnim Zola also shows him all the horrors that Hydra has been responsible for over the decades). Cap knows about other events, disasters, mass killings, general awfulness, globally, during the life he goes on to lead with Peggy post-WW2 and quiet, private dance.
Could Steve Rogers really just stand aside for all that? Could he not even warn people about any of it? I can’t imagine it.
(Never mind that he also knows the outline of Peggy’s life. He’s researched it. He was there at her funeral. If he’s the quiet, unnamed “husband” in her known background, he’s a part of all that, but even if he’s a part of changed history for her … well, that’s fraught, too.)
I love the idea of Steve Rogers living happily ever after, and having it happen in the past like that is wonderfully fitting. I just don’t see it happening as presented.
(On the other hand, yes, we all want to know how Steve put back all the Infinity Stones back to where they were stolen so that history wasn’t changed, because there are cases where that seems … um … highly problematic. See below.)
Side note here: I loved that they ran with one of the best bits from Avengers 2, the idea that Cap is worthy to wield Mjolnir. I also accept it that it let Cap reasonably go up against Thanos himself, in a more believable fashion than in Infinity War. But … they made it a thing way too frequently. It was a squee moment once or twice; making it the standard attack cheapened the effect for me.
Thor
I’ve seen a lot of anger expressed over how Thor was handled in the movie, in particular the “fat shaming” done of the Thunder God.
I’m not nearly as irritated about that (and I say that as someone with more than a few pounds that I oughtn’t have). Infinity War, coming on the aftermath of Thor: Ragnarok, and the succeeding initial scenes of Endgame, all show a hero in crisis, stripped of loved ones, stripped of pride, hair forcibly shaved, eye lost, failing to stop the destruction of his home, failing to stop the killings and death of his people, allowing half the life in the universe to be killed, and then clumsily slaying Thanos as a (relatively) helpless captive.
The guy is deeply, deeply troubled, and he pursues that dark path into the bottle, letting himself go, withdrawing from anything but drunken communiques with his “subjects” in New Asgard.
And, yes, part of that is that he’s fat.
Now, should that be something humorous? Yeah, maybe not. On the other hand, Ragnarok established (and was lauded repeatedly for) the precedent of Funny Thor, who acts goofy as often as he acts like a hero. Call it the “Gimli-ing” of Thor. So, unless you’re going to go really dark and melodramatic with Thor, after all he’s done (and not done), then going the humorous, dissolute, drunken Thor with him is the only way to go.
And, yes, part of that is that he’s let himself go physically. That happens. It’s not the only reason why people are overweight, but it’s certainly a reason. Objecting to Thor as “fat shaming” seems secondary to playing drunken depression for yocks.
Thor’s story is only partially complete — he redeems himself in battle (if not quite as powerfully as in Infinity War, he’s also facing a Thanos with greater resources), and he leaves things behind to wander the stars with the Guardians of the Galaxy (I give that 35% chance of actually leading to him showing up in GotG 3, for a variety of reasons). But he’s still Goofy Thor, engaging in juvenile sparring with Peter Quill,
To me, watching an out-of-shape Thor “man up” and go toe-to-toe against Thanos, and be a key part of the win against him — that was fine. That he still needs to shed a few pounds — well, heck, I do, too.
Hulk
The idea of an internally reconciled Hulk — the Professor — is a fun one, and I liked Ruffalo’s role here better than the last couple of outings (in Infinity War and Ragnarok). That said, the Hulk-who-looks-like-Banner had some weird uncanny cartoonishness to his appearance, and too much of what has happened to him happened offstage.
And that said, I loved that he took on the (very cool) Ironfinity Gauntlet, that he got tod the un-snap, and that he really tried to bring back Tasha.
Still … unlike Cap and Tony and even Thor, this didn’t feel like a real chapter in Hulk’s life — he’s definitely a supporting character here. I’d really love to see a movie that focuses on him, contractual complications with Universal notwithstanding.
Hawkeye
Apparently that opening scene with Hawkeye was hinted at in the later trailers, but I hadn’t seen it and it hit me like a brick. Fast forward five years and Clint is running around as Ronin, out-punishing the Punisher, nothing but anger and pain over his loss, focused like “the Hawk” he’s referred to in his first few appearances.
Funky hairstyle aside, this was all finally a moment for Jeremy Renner to shine, and he really does. Like Thor, he’s intentionally barreled down into a dark place, but not played for laughs. That’s what drives the horrifying scene on Vormir, when he and Tasha go after the Soul Stone.
In the end, like Cap, he finds his family (again). It’s maybe a little facile to handwave a five year vigilante killing spree, both from the enemies he would have made and from the emotional trauma of all of it. There’s plenty of fodder from both if Hawkeye is to appear again in the future — but, maybe instead, his daughter might be being poised to take up the mantle. (Or, splitting the difference, maybe we can start getting some Kate Bishop Hawkeye action …)
Black Widow
I’ve heard a lot of anger over the “fridging” of Natasha. I, honestly, disagree.
Fridging is first and foremost robbing agency from a female character and destroying (killing, raping, depowering) her primarily to motivate a male character’s development. That’s not what I see here.
Tasha has been looking for a hugely redemptive act for as long as she’s been in the Avengers. She’s has been trapped since the Snapture trying to hold the Avengers and the world together. Tasha is a long-time friend and partner of Clint, and knows both what he’s been through and what he’s lost and may yet regain. Everything in her is driving her toward making the decision she does: to get rid of that red on the ledger, to save the world, and save her partner — not with any grand flourish or high publicity or even wanting or caring about a fancy funeral like Tony Stark gets, but with quiet determination and efficiency — and by (once again) outfighting Hawkeye for the chance to do it.
That’s not loss of agency. It’s fulfillment of it.
Not that I’m happy she’s gone; I’m ticked off about it (and unsure what, if anything, will come from the previously announced plans for a Black Widow movie, unless that was all a red herring, which I will be more upset about). But Natasha Romanoff chose her self-sacrifice for a greater cause, every bit as much and every bit as nobly and every bit as purposefully as Tony Stark did. Taking that away from her seems like a greater offense to me.
Ant-Man
Jeez, I love Ant-Man, and Paul Rudd, in this movie. He’s very much the everyman character, definitely with the heroics (and the technobabble), but also the guy who the story uses to help us see what’s happened to the world and to the Avengers. And he keeps hanging in there, even if his power sometimes seems silly compared to everyone else’s.
And the scenes with him and his daughter … lots of feels there.
Good stuff. I want more.
Thanos
We get two Thanoses (and two Thanos deaths) in this film. The character feels more in character, less of a walking exposition and special effects focus than in Infinity War.
Older Thanos has reached fulfilled contentment, if not without pain; he remains a monster, but one who has, most unusually, retired. Young (well, marginally younger) Thanos here is smart, not just powerful. He takes advantage of the intel he gets to act intelligently. He pursues his goals with focus.
He remains one of the better MCU villains, worthy of his opponents and his goals.
Gamora
I’m sorry we didn’t get more of her; she is more than just a walk-on, but Past Gamora, having lost the character development of three movies, just isn’t as interesting, even when she’s being abusive to Quill or trying to figure out her relationship with her sister(s).
There is an interesting fan question out there about whether she gets dusted along with the rest of Thanos’ invasion fleet. We’ll assume not, for reasons.
Nebula
Props to Karen Gillan, who was never one of my favorite Doctor Who companions, but who here manages to give us two subtly different iterations of the same remarkably quiet and introverted character character.
War Machine
Some good screen time here for Don Cheadle, though he still has that secondary character vibe to him. Will he get some future action?
Rocket Raccoon
Everyone’s favorite, even if he’s more of supporting character than a lead here. He does get some good scenes in Asgard, though.
Captain Marvel
Yes, I do realize that she shot her scenes in this film before she shot her own individual film (even if that actually came out first), but, honestly, the character is terribly wasted here, basically showing up for a few blockbuster scenes, then failing to take down Thanos, then … that’s about it.
Part of the problem is that Marvel has introduced a Superman character without realizing the biggest challenge with such a character — having to come up with reasons why they can’t solve every problem. And given that the Big Classic (Retiring) Avengers needed to take the spotlight in the final battle …
She does get one nice exchange with Peter Parker …
I am going to be very curious to see what comes of this character.
And a Host of Others
Most of whom came back with the snap. Tom Holland’s Spider-Man is the best Spider-Man, and his scenes with Tony are, again, wonderful.
Everyone was expecting Winter Soldier to take up the mantle of Captain America, as he did once in the comics. But Falcon has done so in the comics, too. I’ll be curious to see how that works out.
A dozen huzzahs and a six pack of mead for Valkyrie‘s return and her being made monarch over New Asgard (for what it’s worth, though that’s no small thing). She’s had a small, underplayed redemption arc over a pair fo movies, too, and I hope to see more of Tessa Thompson in the MCU’s future.
Benedict Cumberbatch’s Doctor Strange was a delightful add in Infinity War, especially during his sniping with Tony Stark. He’s off-screen (and non-existent) much of Endgame, but gets to play a key role in the Big Battle. I’d really like to see his next movie soon. (Props to the Ancient One showing up — and being both aware of Doctor Strange as her successor and unaware of what he’s done and why.)
Black Panther was similarly taken up in the Snapture; he gets a bit of time “carrying the football” but little more than that (Okoye, presumably running things in Wakanda, gets some good snark, but similarly plays only a small role.) At least they have another film on the schedule.
(I’ve also seen it noted that Endgame was actually in post-production by the time Black Panther premiered — the strange time travel of Hollywood — which means that, esp. with the Wakandan presence in Infinity War, Disney may just not have realized how successful BP and its characters would become.)
Scarlet Witch got some post-unsnap moments in the sun, which is good, even if Vision apparently didn’t make it (presumably that gets addressed in the Disney+ TV series to come). Elizabeth Olsen should also end up playing a big role in future Avengerish activities in the MCU (see below).
Lots of other characters showed back up (always happy to see Maria Hill, even if briefly), but Jon Favreau’s Happy Hogan was one of my favorites adds, if just for his conversation with Morgan at the very end. Good to see him in the next Spider-Man film, too.
Other Big Topics
Time Travel!
Everyone assumed time travel (and all its complications, nicely lampshaded by the movie) would play a role in resolving the Snapocalypse, and they were right. My assumption was something little more … direct, somehow joining back in on the battle with Thanos from the first movie … but what they ended up doing as a “Time Heist” was far more entertaining.
Hopping back to the first Avengers movie was the highlight here, pulling in both original footage, some nice new reverse angles, and expansions of material never even hinted at (e.g., the Ancient One helping from the New York Sanctum; SHIELD/Hydra attempting to take back the Tesseract after the battle).
And that’s all without Stark’s snarky commentary, Ant-Man’s heart attack induction, “Hail Hydra,” Cap-on-Cap action, Banner meeting the Ancient One, or (glee!) Loki’s escape.
(Also — Robert Redford! While this film is more than cameos, what’s remarkable is not only the number of them, but how they actually add to the story.)
There are a dozen different time tangles that are spawned by this — Loki on the loose with the Space stone rather than the Mind stone not least of them — that are ostensibly resolved by further time tinkering and eventually, Cap fixing everything (see below). This movie does get very messy time travel-wise, when one thinks about it. I look forward to many interesting fan-made timeflow maps in the future.
Almost as good is Thor’s return to 2013’s Thor: The Dark World, with a very touching scene with his mother, Rene Russo’s Frigga. It’s a bit of a turning point for Thor’s story here, even if it’s mostly Goofy Thor in attendance (who is, to be sure, a great foil for Rocket), and even if his mom commits the sin of suggesting he needs to improve his diet. (We also get another very brief Loki cameo in here, as well as some new voicework from Natalie Portman as Jane Foster, which was a nice touch.)
The third time travel scene of note (we’ve already touched on the Soul Stone jaunt) is Tony and Steve in the 70s, taking another stab at the Tesseract. This is one of the few scenes for Tony that didn’t quite gel for me — his trying to impact (as well as learn from) his workaholic, demanding father at an earlier age didn’t push the arc needle as much as I’d have liked. Steve’s quick glimpse of Peggy Carter, though, has a subtle but profound effect on his future course of action.
Ostensibly all these time travel shenanigans have either had their effects fixed by Cap going back in time and replacing the stones, or else he’s patched together a primary timeline where that happened (and there are still timelines out there where Loki has the Space stone, etc.). From what I read, Cap eventually retires into one of the alternate timelines, or generates one by his retirement in the 40s, or something. It’s still a bit … um … best left unexamined.
The Return of the Snapped
The world is in horrible shape after the Snapocalypse, and every indication is that it hasn’t gotten much better over the succeeding five years. Humanity is itself seems to be suffering from PTSD, and the implication is that society is running along mostly by inertia, and the economic and scientific and cultural impact of half of humanity vanishing is dragging it into a downward. Indeed, the blow to the human (and, presumably, all sentient) psyche is such that (younger) Thanos decides he has to actually eliminate all life in the universe so that he can give it a new, non-traumatized jumpstart.
Hulk heroically brings (almost) everyone back, across the universe (!), but the implication is that they all just suddenly … reappear, having been gone for five years. If so, that would have a massive (and nearly as disastrous) impact. People have moved on somewhat with their lives — presumably there have been, for example, remarriages, let alone probates of “dead” people’s properties. Imagine the “Right of Return” on a global level.
And, of course, industries, supply chains, the whole economic structure has been revamped (at deep, inefficient, suffering loss) to accommodate a slash in the population by 50%. Now imagine the disruption if the population abruptly doubled today, let alone after having taken that previous blow. You’d be facing serious food shortages even in highly developed nations (presumably last year’s harvest hasn’t doubled).
(An alternative would be a “It never happened” un-snap. After all, the Gauntlet has the Time stone. So five years ago, people didn’t disappear. That has its own implications — even just for Our Heroes, it’s highly improbable that all of the factors lead to Pepper and Tony living in the woods with that particular offspring. Even if you assume the memories of those in immediate proximity to the un-snap are not changed.)
Now imagine this on every inhabited world and habitat in the cosmos.
Yeah, another plot element that really doesn’t bear too much examination. Though it looks like the new Spider-Man movie touches on the events of Endgame, this aspect of it, not so much.
Returning the Gems
Part of the whole time travel plot is, at the end, Captain America going back through time to replace the gems where they were, so that the flow of time (at least from the MCU perspective) remains “normal” (it’s not clear what that term actually means in context).
A few thoughts, though.
- Everyone has been wondering about Cap meeting the Red Skull on Vormir for the Soul Stone. The Russos have confirmed that (probably) happened, but no details. But can the Soul Stone be “put back”? Does that reset the “curse”? If it’s put back, does that mean it’s available for Thanos to pick up later?
- I would give a shiny nickel for a 15 minute mini-film of Cap returning the Time Stone to the Ancient One.
- How does the Space Stone get put back into the Tesseract cube?
- How does the Reality Stone get put back (in liquid form!) into Jane Foster?
And if the stones are all put back … does that mean that Thanos still collects them? No, wait, Thanos of the main timeline vanishes in 2012 (time traveling forward), and then is snapped in 2023, right? So are all the Asgardians (who escaped Hela) back alive? Is Xandar still intact?
Ugh, my head hurts.
The Charge of the MCU Women!
I have mixed feelings about this scene.
On the one hand, I was cheering (inside) over it, and it’s a great moment to see how many female heroes are in the MCU and how powerful they are.
On the other hand, it was one of the few scenes in the movie to take me out of the movie, because it really felt artificial and it really made very little narrative sense … especially since the women are assembling to help bloody Captain Marvel to “carry the football” across the field, and she can fly faster, and hit harder, by orders of magnitude, than any of them.
Yay for women power! Boo for a rather ham-handed example of it.
Whither the Avengers?
Will the MCU ever have an Avengers team again? I think they need to — the multi-character cross-over is too valuable a trope to do away with, and there’s plenty of action left beyond just the individual heroes.
And, sure, we’re talking about a team without the iconic Avengers … but the comics have tackled that any number of times. The obvious candidates that come to mind:
- Captain Marvel – Unless they’re going to keep her patrolling the local star sector, she’s an obvious choice. Again, that means figuring out how to deal with someone powerful enough that destroying entire starships is her opening act.
- Black Panther – Another obvious choice, transportation issues aside (unless they are HQed in Wakanda, and why not?). If not T’challa, there’s a large supporting cast in Wakanda who could be interesting choices, like Okoye or Shuri.
- Scarlet Witch – Yeah, she’s going to have a TV show (with the Vision?), but it would be nice to see Wanda carry on in the kickass fashion we’ve seen lately. Certanily there are a lot of stories that could be crafted for her.
- War Machine – I’ve never been a big Cheadle fan, but (assuming he can get a new supplier of tech), WM makes sense for the Avengers. (The alternative is a new armored character — I doubt we’ll see Pepper Potts in armor again, though I could well be wrong.)
- Falcon – Whether as Falcon, Falcon with a Shield, or the new Captain America, he’s another natural for the team as well. There’s a lot that can go on with his story (how does the nation deal with a black Captain America, for one)
- Winter Soldier – I’d love to see Bucky get some time in the spotlight that’s not as a sidekick, opponent, or bromance of Steve Rogers. Here’s a chance for that, esp. with a planned Winter Soldier / Falcon series on Disney+ coming up.
- Hulk – Sony’s contractual ownership of Hulk for solo movies means that the best we can hope for is more of the character in a group setting. I’m fine with that.
- Doctor Strange – Strange tends to work best alone, or in a supportive role, but the vagaries of movie blockbusterdom means that he can also reasonably play a big role in a group movie, as Infinity War demonstrated. So maybe not Avengers membership but appearance in (as appropriate) Avenger movies.
- Valkyrie – As herself, or as a new wielder of a new Mjolnir, or whatever, do want.
- Ant-Man and Wasp – Two classic Avengers characters. I’d like to see more of them, on a team or solo (duo).
- Spider-Man – Spidey’s a better guest than Avenger, in my experience.
- Hawkeye – Clint is still alive, and well retired … but there are ways to bring him back. Alternately, maybe we need a new archer (and other new blood).
- Some Guardians of the Galaxy? – They have at least one more movie, but most of the Guardians could make the switch over to Avengers to lend some color. The comics team has certainly had aliens and gods and stranger creatures as members.
- Some other potential hero group members? – Marvel has not announced how they are going to make use of their newly-acquired X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises, but, especially with the former, there’s some interesting prospects for introducing new heroes who later go on from the Avengers to other groups of their own.
Whew.
Looking forward to James coming home from school in a few weeks so we can go see Endgame again, together.
Some links I found good reads:
- Avengers: Endgame (2019) – IMDb – Master information for the movie
- Avengers: Endgame – Wikipedia – Decent plot breakdown
- Thor’s change in “Avengers: Endgame” isn’t offensive. If anything, he should stay this way | Salon.com
- Avengers Endgame: Greatest Moment Is Thor’s Dad Bod | Fatherly
- Avengers: Endgame plan has a dark unforeseen consequence – about the un-snap
- Apparently Robert Downey Jr. Didn’t Want To Do Tony Stark’s Last Big Line In Avengers: Endgame – and who came up with “I’m Iron Man”
- Captain Marvel in Endgame Poses a Problem for the MCU – /Film
- The ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Writers Know What People Are Saying About That ‘Girl Gang’ Scene
- The Legacy Of Character in Avengers: Endgame – Chuck Wendig: Terribleminds
- ‘Avengers: Endgame’: A spoiler-y discussion about Marvel’s epic finale – CNN
- Avengers Endgame Spoilers: All the Questions We Still Have