Mukasey sent his response to Democrats Tuesday and while he said the waterboarding procedure described in their letter “seem over the line” and was “repugnant” he declined to declare it illegal.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n
It’s “repugnant,” but it may be okay do to it? Is that what our national concept of justice has come to?<\/p>\n
He said he could not do so because he doesn’t know whether the U.S. has used it, doesn’t want to jeopardize interrogators and doesn’t want to give America’s enemies insight into U.S. techniques. “They are putting him in an untenable position on this,” says White House spokesman Tony Fratto.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
The problem, of course, is that we have almost certainly been using waterboarding as an interrogation technique. If we have, and if it’s identified as “torture” by the government (which it is certainly classified as by various human rights organizations and by US administrations past), then the folks who have done it, who have ordered it, and who have allowed it, could, in fact, be tried for war crimes.<\/p>\n
Well, maybe. But that’s the fear. So because it “might” have been done, Mukasey is unwilling (as a representative and nominee of the Bush Administration — which, in fact, is the body that has put him in an “untenable position”) to call it torture<\/em>, or illegal<\/em>. <\/p>\nSo, frankly, he ought to be voted down. If the AG publicly dithers on what’s “illegal,” he’s not a good AG.<\/p>\n
To give Mukasey his due, it’s altogether possible, even likely, that he considers it torture, and, once in office, would work from the inside to end it as an accepted interrogation technique. But to a certain degree, this is not about Mukasey, but about Bush and his Administration’s “do whatever we think necessary” pursuit of the War on Terror. If Mukasey is a victim of that — well, he knew the job was dangerous when he let himself get nominated for it.<\/p>\n
\nBut enough about that. What do I<\/em> think?<\/p>\nThe “torture” debate has been, unfortunately, prone to way too much posturing and false binary choices. On the one hand, the side with the moral high ground simply says, “Torture is wrong, and so it should never, ever, ever <\/em>be done. Ever<\/em>.”<\/p>\nAt which point the other side, possibly pragmatic, possibly just evil, says, “Well, what if someone held the only clue to an atomic bomb located in a major metropolitan area, and they wouldn’t talk. Would it be okay to use torture then?”<\/p>\n
At which point the moral high ground side either says “No,” which makes them look like ridiculous fools willingr to sacrifice millions of people for some abstract principle, or “Yes,” which then lets the other side say, “So torture is okay.”<\/p>\n
The problem is, that’s a false choice. And it comes down to the nature — and effectiveness — of torture itself.<\/p>\n
The moral high-grounders note, correctly, that torture is generally not a useful tool. Under torture, folks will say whatever they think is necessary to stop the torture. Unverifiable or open-ended information is not amenable to torture. Asking folks under torture to “name names” or describe plots and co-conspirators or verify info that is fed to them will net you only what the tortured think you want to hear. Which makes the horrible decision to intentionally hurt someone in order to coerce them into talking all the worse for being worthless. What does it profiteth a man if he sells his soul and get useless intel in return?<\/p>\n
And that’s what most of interrogation is. Short of a verifiable question like, “Where is the bomb planted?” torture’s utility is extremely <\/em>limited.<\/p>\nBut in those rare, narrow bounds — yes, there is some <\/em>utility. And, yes, faced with an imminent, massive threat about which that verifiable information can be gleaned (such as the location of the hypothetical nuclear device) … well, yes, I can see torture being both useful and, given the stakes and the utility, arguably defensible.<\/p>\nOr, put another way, if it the only answer to finding out where my daughter had been kidnapped to was waterboarding a prisoner, I would be the first one in line with a bucket. What it would do to me to do it would be horrible, but it would be worth it for information that could only be gathered that way and that could be verified immediately.<\/p>\n
And, yes, I would expect to be charged with assault and torture, and would let others vet and judge the needfulness of my crimes (for a crime it would be) and its mitigating justification. Do something awful? Take responsibility for it, dammit –<\/em>– don’t pretend that it’s not <\/em>awful, or that it wasn’t a “least worst” answer, or that other folks have no right to pass judgment on it..<\/p>\nDesperate times call for desperate measures — but not as a matter of policy, only as a dark, terrible aberration of norms and morals. And only as something that demands review, judgment, and taking of responsibility. It’s not as nice and neat as the moral high-grounders might like (neither is war, something that may also be exceptionally necessary at times) — but it’s miles away from the “anything goes” attitude that the current Administration seems so desperate to keep intact.<\/p>\n
It’s not easy, or trivial, to admit that I think that there are cases where torture is justified. <\/p>\n
Happy Halloween. Boo.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Torture. Bush’s Attorney General nominee, Michael Mukasey, hailed as “Oh my God, after an ideologue like John Ashcroft and an incompetent stooge like Alberto Gonzalez the next best thing to…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[10,9,27],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-12168","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-geopolitical-brouhaha","category-politics-law","category-religion"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":33308,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2013\/04\/21\/who-wouldnt-use-torture-on-this-punk.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":0},"title":""Who Wouldn't Use Torture On This Punk?"","author":"***Dave","date":"Sun 21-Apr-13 12:26pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Um ... me?I mean, this isn't anywhere close to the \"ticking time bomb\" \"Twenty-Four Hours\" type of scenario that torture fetishists love\u00a0to use to justifiy legal protection for twisting arms and applying thumbscrews. \"What if Hasim was the only one who knew where the atomic bomb was that was going\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":24131,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/11\/29\/i-dont-think-its-technically-torture-so-it-must-be-okay.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":1},"title":"I don't think it's technically torture, so it must be okay!","author":"***Dave","date":"Tue 29-Nov-11 11:01pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Yes, let's be sure to defend a moral disaster and pragmatic waste of time on the basis of (a poor reading of) \"technical rules.\" Just the president we want. #ddtb Embedded Link Gingrich Changes His Position: \u2018Waterboarding Is, By Every Technical Rule, Not Torture\u2019 Back in 2009, when the public\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":24002,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/11\/23\/truth-justice-and-the-secret-annex-of-completely-legal-torture-methods-way.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":2},"title":"Truth, Justice, and the Secret Annex of Completely Legal Torture Methods Way","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 23-Nov-11 7:11am","format":false,"excerpt":"Because overturning a no-torture executive order and instead mandating a classified set of \"enhanced interrogation techniques\" in a Defense spending bill is what America is all about, right? Well, apparently it is for one GOP Senator. #ddtb Embedded Link Republican Senator Proposes Torture Amendment To Defense Bill","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":131873,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2016\/10\/24\/the-president-cant-declare-torture-legal.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":3},"title":"The President can't declare torture legal","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 24-Oct-16 9:30pm","format":false,"excerpt":"That should actually be a relief to everyone, even if they're really scared of Evil Muslim Terrorists. Major New Court Ruling Says \u201cEven The President\u201d Can\u2019t Declare Torture Lawful The ruling reinstates a lawsuit against a military contractor for its role in the torture of four men at the notorious\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":136408,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2018\/05\/11\/since-we-seem-to-be-having-the-torture-debate-again.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":4},"title":"Since we seem to be having the torture debate AGAIN","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 11-May-18 11:25am","format":false,"excerpt":"Guess I need to post this AGAIN. \u00a0 View on Google+","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x"},"classes":[]},{"id":43310,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/06\/30\/because-torture-is-necessary-for-national-security.html","url_meta":{"origin":12168,"position":5},"title":"Because torture is necessary for national security!","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 30-Jun-14 10:36pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Except, y'know, where folk are actually concerned about the truth. \"Torture has corrupted everything in the military commissions. It touches everything: pretrial confinement, tainted interrogations, the reliability of witness statements, and ultimately whether or not the United States can sentence Mr al Baluchi to death,\" Connell said in a statement.But...\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12168","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=12168"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12168\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=12168"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=12168"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=12168"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}