{"id":16857,"date":"2010-03-07T01:06:02","date_gmt":"2010-03-07T08:06:02","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/?p=16857"},"modified":"2010-03-07T01:06:02","modified_gmt":"2010-03-07T08:06:02","slug":"some-guy-and-prayer-some-thoughtful-considerations","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2010\/03\/07\/some-guy-and-prayer-some-thoughtful-considerations.html","title":{"rendered":"[Some Guy] and Prayer – some thoughtful considerations"},"content":{"rendered":"

A very nice lady of my acquaintance forwarded me (and some dozens of other people) an essay attributed to Andy Rooney on prayer and how awful it is that all those atheists are so sensitive about someone praying in public.<\/p>\n

*sigh*<\/p>\n

First (though it’s not all that important) the essay in question is not by Andy Rooney.\u00a0 Nor is it (as often also attributed) by Paul Harvey.\u00a0 It’s by a sports columnist in Texas, Nick Gholson, in 1999<\/a>.<\/p>\n

The essay’s points are, to sum up (you can read the whole thing in the link above):<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. Somebody saying a simple prayer before a football game does not warrant a law suit.<\/li>\n
  2. It’s okay if it’s a Christian prayer because this is a (predominately) Christian country, founded by (predominately) Christians.<\/li>\n
  3. Christians are called to prayer, and stopping them from praying is simply wrong.<\/li>\n
  4. [Added by subsequent writers] It’s time for the majority to get to do what the majority wants to do.<\/li>\n
  5. [Added by subsequent writers] Nobody’s forcing anyone to pray, say the Pledge, etc.\u00a0 But for those who want to, they should be able to.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    Where to begin.\u00a0 It’s late, and I should be asleep, but this is ticking me off mightily so I need to get my thoughts\/concerns on “paper.”<\/p>\n

    \"\"<\/div>\n

    Nobody, not even the most ardent, militant, in-your-face atheist, thinks that people should not be allowed to pray.\u00a0 Some may mock the practice, but the personal practice of spirituality is agreed upon as a fundamental right of humanity and of citizens in this country.<\/p>\n

    The problem comes not from others praying, but from public prayer as seemingly sanctioned, sponsored, and supported by the government.\u00a0 It’s ironic that many of the people the most appalled at government’s intrusion into our daily lives seem most willing to let the government impose religious proclamations on others … so long as it is, in fact, their own religion that is being touted.<\/p>\n

    When the government — whether we’re talking Congress or the local school district — provides a supported platform for religious expression, they are saying that religion is the “right” one (unless they provide a platform for all religions, but that’s probably not the case with these football games).\u00a0 They are saying that those who believe as the speaker are part of the “in” crowd, are “real” members of the citizenry — and those who don’t, are not.<\/p>\n

    Imagine, if you will, someone standing up at a high school football game, and saying, “Wow, it’s great to be white, and I’m so glad that white people are so nifty and that by being white we are, in fact, the coolest kids on the block.”\u00a0 Would it be adequate to say that (a) the majority of US citizens are white, (b) the Founders were all white, and (c) it’s only for 30 seconds, so where’s the harm?<\/p>\n

    The essay makes the comment that if the writer were in Jerusalem for a football game, he would expect a Jewish prayer; if in Baghdad for soccer, a Muslim prayer; if in China for ping-pong (!) a Buddhist prayer (I suspect Beijing might have objections, but let’s move along).\u00a0 That’s fine — as a visitor<\/em>, one expects to comport to the local customs.<\/p>\n

    But religious freedom and freedom from government-imposed religious viewpoints, in the Constitution, isn’t about visitors<\/em>, it’s about the locals<\/em>.\u00a0 If you were born and raised in Israel, or in Iraq, and were a Christian, I expect you might feel a bit of an outsider in your own land if every public, government-sponsored event was preceded by a prayer that you could not, in good conscience, agree with.<\/p>\n

    Let us assume that the average football game in question is attended by folks who are religiously affiliated in parallel with the American public.\u00a0 That would mean<\/a> that 78% of the folk in the stands were Christian (including Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, and Orthodox), 5% were of another religion (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.), and 16% were non-religious (atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated believers in something).<\/p>\n

    To take the writer’s position, it’s okay for that 78% majority to get government sanction to pray at public events (so long, one imagines, as the actual expression of that prayer is generic enough to fit into the majority … appeals to the Virgin\u00a0 Mary, or references to Joseph Smith are, one would conclude, not acceptable).<\/p>\n

    No, nobody is asking in these prayers for “everyone to be baptized,” and nobody’s passing the plate. On the other hand, the days when it was assumed that everyone was, in fact, baptized (and, if not, were certainly suspicious hombres), or that people were expected to contribute financially to the local majority religious denomination (and, if they didn’t, were subject to social ostracism, if not legal harassment) are not that\u00a0 far behind us.\u00a0 and public, government-sponsored prayer is the nose under the camel’s tent for that.<\/p>\n

    The most disturbing element here is the claim that this kind of prayer is dictated by God.<\/p>\n

    Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep.\u00a0 Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

    Except that,in fact, nobody is telling anyone to cease praying<\/em>.\u00a0 If you want to pray before a football game for the safety of the players and the folks attending, have at it. If you want to pray in a classroom, or at a city council meeting, or in a park or in your home or in your car or at the bank or the store or the bar … do it.\u00a0 Nobody can and nobody really wants to stop you.\u00a0 You don’t need someone up on stage doing it for you — you can do it all by yourself.<\/p>\n

    But that’s not what we’re talking about here.\u00a0 We’re talking about someone being given public <\/em>time, in front of everyone<\/em>, with the sanction and funding and tacit endorsement of the government<\/em>, praying to and on behalf of everyone <\/em>in attendance, whether they believe in it or not<\/em>.\u00a0 Where the message is that all right-thinking, honest, contributing, important people in the community are believers in what’s being said (because it’s being said by the legal arm of society, the government), and if you disagree … well, there’s something wrong, suspicious, sinful, and likely evil about you.<\/p>\n

    In other words, it’s one thing to vote Democrat and contribute to Democratic candidates.\u00a0 It’s another thing to get up in front of an audience and say, “We are all Democrats!\u00a0 And we all support the Democratic party and its ideals and platform!”<\/p>\n

    And, in fact, that’s precisely what Jesus had to say about prayer<\/a> (Matthew 6:1-8):<\/p>\n

    1<\/sup>Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.<\/p>\n

    2<\/sup>Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.<\/p>\n

    3<\/sup>But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth<\/strong>:<\/p>\n

    4<\/sup>That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.<\/p>\n

    5<\/sup>And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.<\/p>\n

    6<\/sup>But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret<\/strong>; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.<\/p>\n

    7<\/sup>But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.<\/p>\n

    8<\/sup>Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

    The Bible may urge us to “pray without ceasing,” but Jesus makes it clear that such prayer is a personal thing, not to be shared with (let alone imposed upon) others.<\/p>\n

    Andy Rooney<\/span> Paul Harvey<\/span> Nick Gholson is wrong.\u00a0 This isn’t about telling the majority that they cannot pray. This is about telling the majority that they cannot impose their beliefs on others, just as they would not have others’ beliefs imposed on them.\u00a0 Almost Golden Rule-ish, that.\u00a0 This is about saying that the government supports no faction, no denomination, no religious creed, because any such support tells those on the outs (whether Buddhists or Baptists) that they are less than full citizens, that they are allowed exist only at the whim of the majority.<\/p>\n

    And that’s wrong.\u00a0 And even, dare I say, un-American.<\/p>\n

    Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep.\u00a0 Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.<\/span><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    A very nice lady of my acquaintance forwarded me (and some dozens of other people) an essay attributed to Andy Rooney on prayer and how awful it is that all those atheists are so sensitive about someone praying in public. *sigh* First (though it’s not all that important) the essay in question is not by … Continue reading “[Some Guy] and Prayer – some thoughtful considerations”<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[9,27,8],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-16857","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-politics-law","category-religion","category-zt-pc"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":12939,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2008\/09\/04\/with_friends_like_thse.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":0},"title":"With friends like thse …","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 4-Sep-08 11:08am","format":false,"excerpt":"Some conservative Christians are so enamored of Palin, they not only now want McCain to win, they want him to win and then quickly\u00a0die. Antiabortion militant and all-round theocratic activist...","rel":"","context":"In "Elections 2008"","block_context":{"text":"Elections 2008","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/politics-law\/elections-2008"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":17285,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2010\/05\/05\/an-open-letter-to-rev-franklin-graham.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":1},"title":"An open letter to Rev. Franklin Graham","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 5-May-10 3:30pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Dear Rev. Graham, I have a few thoughts I'd like to share with you, based on comments made by you in\u00a0this article in today's USA Today. \u00a0I realize you're highly unlikely to read this, but I feel better addressing it directly to you, rather than talk about you with others.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Politics & Law"","block_context":{"text":"Politics & Law","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/politics-law"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":25322,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/12\/really-the-lords-prayer-in-school-by-law.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":2},"title":"Really? The Lord's Prayer in school? By law?","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 12-Jan-12 9:12am","format":false,"excerpt":"I have to assume that the Indiana state senators who introduced this claptrap aren't so stupid that they don't realize that this will get kicked out by the courts. Organized recitation of prayer in public schools was tossed out by SCOTUS fifty year ago.So, instead, I have to further assume\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":13575,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2008\/11\/12\/praying_for_electoral_vic.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":3},"title":"Praying for electoral victory","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 12-Nov-08 5:09am","format":false,"excerpt":"So one would think that, if anyone could be prayed into office, it would be the McCain\/Palin ticket. Prayer for John McCain and Sarah Palin Please pass this prayer on...","rel":"","context":"In "Elections 2008"","block_context":{"text":"Elections 2008","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/politics-law\/elections-2008"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1643,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2001\/12\/01\/by_god_they_sho.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":4},"title":"By God, they should hang him from the highest … er … tree …","author":"***Dave","date":"Sat 1-Dec-01 5:06pm","format":false,"excerpt":"The leader of the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church is in hot water over -- gasp! -- praying with others at an ecumenical prayer meeting at Ground Zero, and...","rel":"","context":"In "Religion"","block_context":{"text":"Religion","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/religion"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":25377,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/13\/and-theyll-know-we-are-christians-by-our-love.html","url_meta":{"origin":16857,"position":5},"title":"And they'll know we are Christians by our love?","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 13-Jan-12 11:52am","format":false,"excerpt":"After the local public school board lost its case yesterday regarding a big prayer mural at a high school, some fine, upstanding, devout Christian students expressed their tolerance, Christ-like forgiveness, and other-cheek-turningness through their calm, considered, prayerful use of social media, discussing the teen atheist who filed the law suit\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16857","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=16857"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/16857\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=16857"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=16857"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=16857"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}