{"id":23033,"date":"2011-10-10T12:07:09","date_gmt":"2011-10-10T18:07:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/?p=23033"},"modified":"2011-10-10T12:10:28","modified_gmt":"2011-10-10T18:10:28","slug":"the-c-word-and-presidential-politics","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/10\/10\/the-c-word-and-presidential-politics.html","title":{"rendered":"The “C” Word and Presidential Politics"},"content":{"rendered":"

I am, of course, speaking of cult<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>
So, Mitt, are you a Creepy Cultist, or a Comforting Christian?<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

As Mitt Romney continues to be a strong contender in the 2012 GOP Primaries, the Right-Wing Christian Fringe is in full-bore assault on Mormonism and the LDS church, of which Romney is a member. For example<\/a>:<\/p>\n

The pastor who introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry at a conservative gathering Friday said rival presidential candidate Mitt Romney is not a Christian and is in a cult because he is a Mormon.<\/p>\n

Robert Jeffress, the senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Dallas, made similar remarks about Romney when he ran in the 2008 campaign. Event organizers at the Values Voters Summit selected Jeffress to introduce Perry, but the Perry campaign was consulted about the choice and approved Jeffress to introduce the Texas governor.<\/p>\n

[…] “Rick Perry’s a Christian. He’s an evangelical Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ,” Jeffress said. “Mitt Romney’s a good moral person, but he’s not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. It has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of Christianity.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I grew up in the late 70s, and the “c” word was bandied around a lot,with folks like Jim Jones<\/a> and his “Peoples Temple” defining the term for my generation.<\/p>\n

So, is the LDS church a cult?<\/p>\n

You can find as many definitions of the term<\/a> as you can find people defining it, but one of Merriam-Webster<\/a>‘s definitions is:<\/p>\n

a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Of course, by that definition, pretty much any religion could be considered a cult, either its past or today.<\/p>\n

Most people tend to frame cults around a number of somewhat negative factors:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. They believe weird things!<\/li>\n
  2. They focus on a single personality!<\/li>\n
  3. They use coercive means to keep their people under control!<\/li>\n
  4. They’re a tiny fringe splinter group!<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    As regards #1, again, it’s a charge that could be leveled against any religious faith, large or small. \u00a0Christians think Hindus believe weird things, and the reverse is true.<\/p>\n

    #2 is not universally true, but in many cases there is a single, dominant personality or leader of groups that are deemed cults, and that person accepts personal veneration by the worshipers (either as the center of the worship or as the high priest thereof). \u00a0One might consider Joseph Smith to be the single personality for Mormonism, succeeded by Brigham Young — but those days are long past in the LDS church, and the church’s governing board is no more sinister of a “cult of personality” than, say, the Pope, or Pat Robertson.<\/p>\n

    On #3, this is the common picture of a Jim Jones-style cult. \u00a0One thinks of runaway teens, subjected to sleep and food deprivation, locked in their rooms, force to pray to their cult leader or something of the like. \u00a0That certainly doesn’t sound true for the LDS church. \u00a0Sure, there are strong social bonds to keep people in the church — both in families and in majority-Mormon communities (and the states, in Utah’s case). \u00a0But the same is true for any majority religion in a household, town, or state, be it Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.<\/p>\n

    As to #4, there are over 14 million Mormons in the US. That makes them a larger denomination here than the Episcopalians, the Methodists, the Lutherans (of all sorts), or the Presbyterians. Their number is almost as great as the Southern Baptist Convention (at 16 millions). That doesn’t sound like a tiny fringe group to me.<\/p>\n

    Ah, but someone might say, they aren’t Christian. What about that?<\/p>\n

    Unfortunately, it’s all a matter of defining your terms. Aside from the nigh-useless generic description as a “follower of Christ,” what makes someone a Christian has been open to debate even before Christ died. \u00a0Catholics, Protestants, Quakers, Unitarians, Baptists (!), not to mention millions of “heretics” and “apostates” have been banished, jailed, tortured, or killed over the centuries, including in this country, for not being a True Christian\u2122. \u00a0Mormons, in this, are no different.<\/p>\n

    Do you need to believe in the Nicene Creed to be a Christian? \u00a0How about believing in the divinity of Christ? \u00a0Was Jesus Man, God, God in a mortal shell, or what? \u00a0What about being a Trinitarian? What of the Resurrection of Christ, or what his death and resurrection actually represented in a metaphysical context? \u00a0What about the Virgin Birth? Do you have to be a Biblical literalist, or consider it to be the inerrant Word of God? \u00a0Does that, or does it not, include the so-called Apocrypha? Do you have to be a Young Earth Creationist? Do you have to believe in Hell and\/or eternal damnation? Is Baptism something you do to infants, or can only do as an adult? Is the communion bread transubstantiated, consubstantiated, or simply a symbol? Can you be dribbled on, or do you need full immersion? Do you have to be Born Again to be saved?<\/p>\n

    You can find people who would point at one or more of the above, or even more esoteric points, and declare that if you don’t toe that particular line, you cannot be considered a True Christian\u2122.<\/p>\n

    Now, certainly Mormon theology is a bit out there. \u00a0But is it a branch of Christianity? \u00a0Well, it really depends on who you ask. To quote Wikipedia<\/a>‘s summary (there’s tons more detail, and even there one finds a lot of controversy on the Discussion page):<\/p>\n

    Mormonism and Christianity have a complex theological, historical, and sociological relationship. Mormons express the doctrines of Mormonism using standard biblical terminology, and have similar views about the nature of Jesus’ atonement, bodily resurrection, and Second Coming as traditional Christianity. Nevertheless, Mormons agree with some non-Mormons that their view of God is significantly different from the trinitarian view of the Nicene Creed of the 4th century. Though Mormons consider the Bible as scripture (insofar as it is “translated correctly”), they have also adopted additional scriptures. Mormons not only practice baptism and celebrate the Eucharist but also participate in religious rituals unknown to traditional Christianity. \u00a0Although the various branches of Christianity have diverse views about the nature of salvation, the Mormon view is particularly idiosyncratic.<\/p>\n

    Focusing on differences, some Christians consider Mormonism “non-Christian”; and Mormons, focusing on similarities, are offended at being so characterized. Mormons do not accept non-Mormon baptism nor do non-Mormon Christians usually accept Mormon baptism. Mormons regularly proselytize individuals actually or nominally within the Christian tradition, and some Christians, especially evangelicals, proselytize Mormons. A prominent scholarly view is that Mormonism is a form of Christianity, but is distinct enough from traditional Christianity so as to form a new religious tradition, much as Christianity is more than just a sect of Judaism.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

    So you’ll find a number of folks who’ll say, “Hell, no,” others who will say, “Of course they are,” and still others who will say, “Well, sorta-kinda.”<\/p>\n

    One might ask a more pointed question as to what the hell difference it makes, regarding selecting a president. \u00a0There are Christians I’d trust (per se) at president, and other Christians I would not. \u00a0I’m interested in knowing someone’s religious beliefs (and disbeliefs) as a possible predictor of their behavior and the choices they will make in office (with a confirmation as to how that fits with their track record). \u00a0But it’s not, to me, the sole or even most important thing, to know where someone goes to church on Sunday (or whatever day(s) of the week, or if they go only occasionally, or if they don’t go at all).<\/p>\n

    But, then, nobody’s handing me a microphone to declare someone theologically fit, or unfit, for office.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    I am, of course, speaking of cult. As Mitt Romney continues to be a strong contender in the 2012 GOP Primaries, the Right-Wing Christian Fringe is in full-bore assault on Mormonism and the LDS church, of which Romney is a member. For example: The pastor who introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry at a conservative gathering … Continue reading “The “C” Word and Presidential Politics”<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[99,27,8],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-23033","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-elections-2012","category-religion","category-zt-pc"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":30569,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/10\/13\/we-were-against-cults-before-we-were-for-them.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":0},"title":""We were against cults before we were for them"","author":"***Dave","date":"Sat 13-Oct-12 12:29am","format":false,"excerpt":"Offered not as a critique, per se, of Billy Graham -- who I honestly believe is not directing any of this activity -- but as an example of the continuing tension on the Religious Right between \"Mormonism is an evil, non-Christian cult that we must shun!\" and \"We must get\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":27355,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/04\/11\/the-arch-right-vs-the-mormon.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":1},"title":"The Arch-Right vs the Mormon","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 11-Apr-12 2:56pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Bryan Fischer, famous dolt, suggests that True Christians(TM) won't vote for Romney because Romney, a Mormon, is a \"spiritually compromised\" \"polytheist,\" a \"non-Christian.\"On the one hand, as a non-fan of Mitt for a variety of reasons (none of which include the above), I am pleased at any predictions that the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":27731,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/05\/03\/etch-a-sketch-endorsements.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":2},"title":"Etch-a-Sketch Endorsements","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 3-May-12 2:06pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Not that I think anyone should ever be paying any attention to Michele Bachmann ever again, but count her as one more \"Mitt Romney is a doo-doo head\" \/ \"I whole-heartedly endorse that wonderful Mitt Romney\" pirouetter on the GOP side of the aisle. Embedded Link Michele Bachmann\u2019s 10 Best\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":23006,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/10\/08\/romney-offers-weak-tea-objection-to-fischer-fischer-calls-it-leftist-insult.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":3},"title":"Romney offers weak tea objection to Fischer; Fischer calls it leftist insult","author":"***Dave","date":"Sat 8-Oct-11 1:26pm","format":false,"excerpt":"There's been a fair amount of discussion and expectation about how Mitt Romney, a speaker at the \"Values Voters Summit\" (cough), would react to being the person on stage immediately before Bryan Fischer (my pet dolt). \u00a0Fischer has, of course, been a regular critic of the Mormon Church, declaring it\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Dolts"","block_context":{"text":"Dolts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/dolts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/02\/romney-300x200.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":30485,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/10\/04\/mitt-tries-to-etch-a-sketches-away-his-47-remark.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":4},"title":"Mitt tries to\u00a0etch-a-sketches away his 47% remark","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 4-Oct-12 10:54pm","format":false,"excerpt":"1. Romney is secretly recorded telling a room full of rich donors:_\"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":26625,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/02\/22\/so-whats-the-romney-agenda-if-not-secular.html","url_meta":{"origin":23033,"position":5},"title":"So what's the Romney agenda, if not "secular"?","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 22-Feb-12 8:32am","format":false,"excerpt":"If Romney is going to attack Obama for \"the people the president hangs around with, and their agenda, their secular agenda,\" does that mean that Romney intends to hang out with people who have a religious or sectarian agenda for government?Do tell, Mitt. #ddtb Embedded Link 'Secular' is not a\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23033","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=23033"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/23033\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=23033"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=23033"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=23033"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}