{"id":25306,"date":"2012-01-11T21:15:16","date_gmt":"2012-01-12T04:15:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html"},"modified":"2012-01-12T18:07:00","modified_gmt":"2012-01-13T01:07:00","slug":"ministerial-exception","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html","title":{"rendered":"Ministerial Exception"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Okay, I&#39;ll confess to being conflicted on this.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, I support the proposition that internal <i>religious<\/i> disputes should not be subject to judicial review.  Is Pastor X teaching the &quot;right&quot; religious stuff?  That&#39;s not what judges should be deciding.  And, similarly, should Church Y be able to fire Pastor X for not following church rules?  Yes, I think they should, even if that would seem to be discrimination on for religious reasons.  Otherwise, what&#39;s the point?<\/p>\n<p>On the other hand, I can see this as something easily abused (as the case in question raises). How bright a line is there in Roberts&#39; suggestion of &quot;teachers of the faith&quot; and &quot;employees we&#39;ll just arbitrarily label as ministers so we don&#39;t need to worry about job discrimination laws&quot;?<\/p>\n<p>In other words, I think the SCOTUS case is correct in principle, but I am concerned about how some churches may, quite un-Jesus-like, exploit that principle for less-than-holy reasons. #ddtb<\/p>\n<p style='clear:both;'>\n<p style='margin-bottom:5px;'><strong>Embedded Link<\/strong><\/p>\n<div style='height:120px;width:120px;overflow:hidden;float:left;margin-top:0px;padding-top:0px;margin-right:10px;vertical-align:top;text-align:center;clear:both;'>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img style='max-width:none;' src='http:\/\/images0-focus-opensocial.googleusercontent.com\/gadgets\/proxy?container=focus&#038;gadget=a&#038;resize_h=100&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2F%2Fimages%2F2012%2F01%2F12%2Fus%2Fscotus-190.jpg' border='0' \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n<p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href='http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2012\/01\/12\/us\/supreme-court-recognizes-religious-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html?_r=1&#038;pagewanted=all'>Justices Recognize \u2018Ministerial Exception\u2019 to Job Discrimination Laws<\/a><br \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tThe Supreme Court found a \u201cministerial exception\u201d to employment discrimination laws, saying religious groups must be free to choose leaders without government interference.\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n<p style='clear:both;'>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Okay, I&#39;ll confess to being conflicted on this. On the one hand, I support the proposition that internal religious disputes should not be subject to judicial review. Is Pastor X teaching the &quot;right&quot; religious stuff? That&#39;s not what judges should be deciding. And, similarly, should Church Y be able to fire Pastor X for not &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Ministerial Exception&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[106,109],"tags":[107],"class_list":["post-25306","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-plusposts","category-church-state","tag-ddtb"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":138767,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2019\/05\/14\/the-banning-of-segregation.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":0},"title":"The Banning of Segregation","author":"***Dave","date":"Tue 14-May-19 12:10am","format":false,"excerpt":"As a nation we once stood against discrimination, even when dressed up as \"religious freedom\"","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~Tweets&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~Tweets","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/tweets"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":137364,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2018\/10\/19\/religious-freedom-is-not-just-about-discriminating-against-the-gays.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":1},"title":"&quot;Religious Freedom&quot; is not just about discriminating against The Gays","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 19-Oct-18 5:43pm","format":false,"excerpt":"It's about discriminating against everyone else.And, in the case of Miracle Hill Ministries, that means not letting anyone mentor or foster children in their care -- for which they get oodles of state money -- who isn't a (straight) Protestant Christian who's able to offer a proper testimony from their\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":24935,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/12\/30\/is-discriminating-against-discrimination-discrimination.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":2},"title":"Is discriminating against discrimination discrimination?","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 30-Dec-11 10:23am","format":false,"excerpt":"Not when it's Your Tax Dollars At Work, in my opinion. 'Anthony R. Picarello Jr., general counsel and associate general secretary of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, disagreed. \u201cIt\u2019s true that the church doesn\u2019t have a First Amendment right to have a government contract,\u201d he said, \u201cbut it\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":130577,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2016\/05\/03\/religious-freedom-requires-defining-religion.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":3},"title":"Religious freedom requires defining religion","author":"***Dave","date":"Tue 3-May-16 7:23am","format":false,"excerpt":"Interesting article here (if not one I fully agree with) on municipalities looking more closely at facilities owned by organizations and trying to determine which ones are legitimate religious efforts, to be exempted from taxation, vs. which ones are simple commercial efforts, to be be treated (and taxed) like any\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":31424,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/11\/19\/hobby-lobby-is-not-a-church.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":4},"title":"Hobby Lobby is not a church","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 19-Nov-12 9:13pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Despite the worshipful home crafty types that visit there. \u00a0Per the ruling:\u201cHowever, Hobby Lobby and Mardel [its partner company] are not religious organizations.\u00a0Plaintiffs have not cited, and the court has not found, any case concluding that secular, for-profit corporations such as Hobby Lobby and Mardel have a constitutional right to\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":25019,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/01\/discrimination-of-conscience.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":5},"title":"Discrimination of conscience","author":"***Dave","date":"Sun 1-Jan-12 2:01pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Churches that become dependent on government money are forced to compromise their beliefs. And if they refuse to compromise those beliefs while still taking government money, then the government is compromising the beliefs of other churches that believe differently ... which in turn sets a precedent for those original churches\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25306","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=25306"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25306\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=25306"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=25306"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=25306"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}