{"id":25306,"date":"2012-01-11T21:15:16","date_gmt":"2012-01-12T04:15:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html"},"modified":"2012-01-12T18:07:00","modified_gmt":"2012-01-13T01:07:00","slug":"ministerial-exception","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html","title":{"rendered":"Ministerial Exception"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Okay, I&#39;ll confess to being conflicted on this.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, I support the proposition that internal <i>religious<\/i> disputes should not be subject to judicial review.  Is Pastor X teaching the &quot;right&quot; religious stuff?  That&#39;s not what judges should be deciding.  And, similarly, should Church Y be able to fire Pastor X for not following church rules?  Yes, I think they should, even if that would seem to be discrimination on for religious reasons.  Otherwise, what&#39;s the point?<\/p>\n<p>On the other hand, I can see this as something easily abused (as the case in question raises). How bright a line is there in Roberts&#39; suggestion of &quot;teachers of the faith&quot; and &quot;employees we&#39;ll just arbitrarily label as ministers so we don&#39;t need to worry about job discrimination laws&quot;?<\/p>\n<p>In other words, I think the SCOTUS case is correct in principle, but I am concerned about how some churches may, quite un-Jesus-like, exploit that principle for less-than-holy reasons. #ddtb<\/p>\n<p style='clear:both;'>\n<p style='margin-bottom:5px;'><strong>Embedded Link<\/strong><\/p>\n<div style='height:120px;width:120px;overflow:hidden;float:left;margin-top:0px;padding-top:0px;margin-right:10px;vertical-align:top;text-align:center;clear:both;'>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img style='max-width:none;' src='http:\/\/images0-focus-opensocial.googleusercontent.com\/gadgets\/proxy?container=focus&#038;gadget=a&#038;resize_h=100&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2F%2Fimages%2F2012%2F01%2F12%2Fus%2Fscotus-190.jpg' border='0' \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n<p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href='http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2012\/01\/12\/us\/supreme-court-recognizes-religious-exception-to-job-discrimination-laws.html?_r=1&#038;pagewanted=all'>Justices Recognize \u2018Ministerial Exception\u2019 to Job Discrimination Laws<\/a><br \/>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tThe Supreme Court found a \u201cministerial exception\u201d to employment discrimination laws, saying religious groups must be free to choose leaders without government interference.\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n<p style='clear:both;'>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Okay, I&#39;ll confess to being conflicted on this. On the one hand, I support the proposition that internal religious disputes should not be subject to judicial review. Is Pastor X teaching the &quot;right&quot; religious stuff? That&#39;s not what judges should be deciding. And, similarly, should Church Y be able to fire Pastor X for not &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/11\/ministerial-exception.html\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Ministerial Exception&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_robots_follow":"","_seopress_robots_imageindex":"","_seopress_robots_snippet":"","_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_robots_breadcrumbs":"","_seopress_robots_freeze_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_custom_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_canonical":"","_seopress_social_fb_title":"","_seopress_social_fb_desc":"","_seopress_social_fb_img":"","_seopress_social_fb_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_height":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_title":"","_seopress_social_twitter_desc":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_height":0,"_seopress_redirections_value":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled_regex":"","_seopress_redirections_logged_status":"","_seopress_redirections_param":"","_seopress_redirections_type":0,"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[106,109],"tags":[107],"class_list":["post-25306","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-plusposts","category-church-state","tag-ddtb"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":24935,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2011\/12\/30\/is-discriminating-against-discrimination-discrimination.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":0},"title":"Is discriminating against discrimination discrimination?","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 30-Dec-11 10:23am","format":false,"excerpt":"Not when it's Your Tax Dollars At Work, in my opinion. 'Anthony R. Picarello Jr., general counsel and associate general secretary of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, disagreed. \u201cIt\u2019s true that the church doesn\u2019t have a First Amendment right to have a government contract,\u201d he said, \u201cbut it\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":31424,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/11\/19\/hobby-lobby-is-not-a-church.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":1},"title":"Hobby Lobby is not a church","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 19-Nov-12 9:13pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Despite the worshipful home crafty types that visit there. \u00a0Per the ruling:\u201cHowever, Hobby Lobby and Mardel [its partner company] are not religious organizations.\u00a0Plaintiffs have not cited, and the court has not found, any case concluding that secular, for-profit corporations such as Hobby Lobby and Mardel have a constitutional right to\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":26143,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/02\/06\/religious-discrimination-due-to-group-spending.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":2},"title":"Religious discrimination due to group spending","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 6-Feb-12 8:30pm","format":false,"excerpt":"This particular bit jumped out at me: 'The Catholic bishops shot back Friday, saying it was misleading to say that no one would be forced to \"buy\" contraceptives, because everyone who contributes to an insurance plan will be paying a portion of the subsidy that provides for free contraception.'This raises\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":10387,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2007\/01\/31\/the_english_adoption_row.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":3},"title":"The English adoption row","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 31-Jan-07 1:31pm","format":false,"excerpt":"So lots of news and hubbub over in the UK about the impact of some sweeping anti-discrimination reform, the Equality Act, and, in particular, the issue of gays and adoptions....","rel":"","context":"In &quot;LGBTQ &amp;c&quot;","block_context":{"text":"LGBTQ &amp;c","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/gay-stuff"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":25019,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/01\/01\/discrimination-of-conscience.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":4},"title":"Discrimination of conscience","author":"***Dave","date":"Sun 1-Jan-12 2:01pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Churches that become dependent on government money are forced to compromise their beliefs. And if they refuse to compromise those beliefs while still taking government money, then the government is compromising the beliefs of other churches that believe differently ... which in turn sets a precedent for those original churches\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":26939,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/03\/08\/religious-freedom-for-me-but-not-necessarily-for-thee.html","url_meta":{"origin":25306,"position":5},"title":"Religious freedom for me, but not necessarily for thee","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 8-Mar-12 9:30am","format":false,"excerpt":"See, I remember a time (maybe it was my upbringing) when religion was all about \"law & order\" -- there were religious commandments and rules and you had to obey them, and that was just like civil and social commandments and rules you had to follow.But somewhere along the line,\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;~PlusPosts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25306","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=25306"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25306\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=25306"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=25306"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=25306"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}