{"id":48850,"date":"2014-12-10T08:25:57","date_gmt":"2014-12-10T15:25:57","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/10\/shooting-the-torture-messenger.html"},"modified":"2014-12-15T06:28:39","modified_gmt":"2014-12-15T13:28:39","slug":"shooting-the-torture-messenger","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/10\/shooting-the-torture-messenger.html","title":{"rendered":"Shooting the torture messenger"},"content":{"rendered":"

One of the fascinating aspects over the release of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA's torture regime has been the messaging from the opposition — the GOP and fellow travelers — along these lines:<\/p>\n

This is all just politics. The Dems were voted out so this is just their way of getting back at the Republicans and the Bush Administration. This was all known by everyone before, so they are just dredging up the past in order to smear their opponents.<\/i><\/p>\n

The fascinating thing about this line of argument is that it says nothing about the content and substance of the charges laid out by the Senate report. It's instead all about tone, and motivation, and other ad hominem<\/i> ways of diverting the conversation from a debate about torture to a debate about politics.<\/p>\n

Was the timing driven by political considerations? Of course it was. The Dems will be the minority in the Senate as of the new year, and the Senator who will be the GOP head of the Intelligence committee is very clearly not at all in favor of this info being released (http:\/\/www.charlotteobserver.com\/2014\/12\/09\/5374087\/sen-richard-burr-says-he-will.html<\/a>), nor will he hold any hearings into the matter ("Put this report down as a footnote in history"). So if it were ever to be released, it has to be now.<\/p>\n

But even if release of the report was in fact motivated solely out of a desire to smear the Bush Administration and embarrass the nation — so what? What about what the report actually says?<\/i> The idea that the American public and the world already knew about all of this is not only disingenuous (if that were true, then why get upset about the report being released) but clearly untrue (given the reactions actually happening). It also clashes with the idea that this will somehow cause some sort of new violence against the US.<\/p>\n

If the information presented is false, it seems like it would be pretty easy to refute it. Were the practices described actually used? Straightforward to determine it. Were any significantly actionable piece of intel gathered? Certainly given we're talking over a decade of activity we can get at least one or two such "successes" clearly documented. Are allegations that the CIA lied to congressional and administration overseers about what they were doing false? If so, there should be some sort of paper trail to prove otherwise.<\/p>\n

Let's talk about those things, regardless of the motivation and timing of the report's release (after how many months of debate about it).<\/p>\n

Is torture a useful and proper way of dealing with people, be they avowed enemies of the United States or just grunts picked up on the battlefield? Isn't that a national discussion worth having?<\/p>\n

Isn't all that more important than mudslinging about why the report was released now?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n
\n
\n<\/a>
\nFischer: Release Of Torture Report Shows That Democrats Are ‘Juvenile Delinquents’<\/a><\/span>
\nThe AFA’s Bryan Fischer was predictably outraged by the release of the Senate report on the CIA’s use of torture … not by the torture itself, mind you, but rather by the release of the repor\n<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

View on Google+<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

One of the fascinating aspects over the release of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA's torture regime has been the messaging from the opposition — the GOP and fellow travelers — along these lines: This is all just politics. The Dems were voted out so this is just their way of getting back … Continue reading “Shooting the torture messenger”<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_robots_follow":"","_seopress_robots_imageindex":"","_seopress_robots_snippet":"","_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_robots_breadcrumbs":"","_seopress_robots_freeze_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_custom_modified_date":"","_seopress_robots_canonical":"","_seopress_social_fb_title":"","_seopress_social_fb_desc":"","_seopress_social_fb_img":"","_seopress_social_fb_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_fb_img_height":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_title":"","_seopress_social_twitter_desc":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img":"","_seopress_social_twitter_img_attachment_id":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_width":0,"_seopress_social_twitter_img_height":0,"_seopress_redirections_value":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled":"","_seopress_redirections_enabled_regex":"","_seopress_redirections_logged_status":"","_seopress_redirections_param":"","_seopress_redirections_type":0,"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[106,715,17,358],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-48850","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-plusposts","category-crime-punishment","category-homeland-security","category-poor-citizenship"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":49042,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/19\/the-case-against-the-torture-report.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":0},"title":"The Case Against the Torture Report","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 19-Dec-14 3:04pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Yeah, America's attention is beginning to wander away from the Torture Report from the Senate Intelligence Committee -- those gifts under the tree won't buy themselves, y'know. But I think it worth a link, for the record and future discussion, to this article by Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR), a member\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/12\/torture2.jpgimgmax%3D660.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/12\/torture2.jpgimgmax%3D660.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/12\/torture2.jpgimgmax%3D660.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x"},"classes":[]},{"id":48859,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/10\/mark-udall-breaks-some-additional-torture-information.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":1},"title":"Mark Udall breaks some additional torture information","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 10-Dec-14 10:53pm","format":false,"excerpt":"As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Udall (D-CO) has been one of the loudest advocates for years on releasing information about intelligence agency abuses, both in this context and regarding surveillance activities, lambasting both the Bush and Obama administrations for their actions. He continued that today, discussing how\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":48846,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/10\/mccain-on-the-torture-report.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":2},"title":"McCain on the Torture Report","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 10-Dec-14 12:55am","format":false,"excerpt":"I've been repeatedly, and gravely disappointed by John McCain several times over the past decade-plus. But he's spot on here, informed not by ideology but by his own experience as a tortured prisoner of war in Viet Nam.'The use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies,\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":14637,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2009\/04\/27\/unblogged-bits-for-monday-27-april-2009.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":3},"title":"Unblogged Bits for Monday, 27 April 2009","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 27-Apr-09 6:00pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Links (most recent first) that caught my eye, but did not warrant full-blown blog entries .... Paul Begala: Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding - Lest we forget. Unless this is what's being remembered by folks who are concerned that they might be next at the dock.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Potpourri"","block_context":{"text":"Potpourri","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/potpourri"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":136408,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2018\/05\/11\/since-we-seem-to-be-having-the-torture-debate-again.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":4},"title":"Since we seem to be having the torture debate AGAIN","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 11-May-18 11:25am","format":false,"excerpt":"Guess I need to post this AGAIN. \u00a0 View on Google+","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/05\/torture%2Bworks.PNGimgmax%3D660.png?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x"},"classes":[]},{"id":48736,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/12\/08\/dont-do-the-crime-if-you-cant-do-the-time-uh-huh-dont-do-it.html","url_meta":{"origin":48850,"position":5},"title":"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time (uh-huh, don't do it)","author":"***Dave","date":"Mon 8-Dec-14 12:45pm","format":false,"excerpt":"Dear Intelligence Community Heads and Conservative Congressfolk (and Fox News): maybe the time to consider whether torture and similar acts might cause violence if they come out is before you do them. Using how others might react as an excuse to keep the truth buried doesn't make things better.(Note to\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/48850","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=48850"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/48850\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":48929,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/48850\/revisions\/48929"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=48850"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=48850"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=48850"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}