{"id":9922,"date":"2006-10-10T07:03:14","date_gmt":"2006-10-10T14:03:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp\/2006\/10\/10\/kids-and-marriage.html"},"modified":"2014-11-05T15:18:18","modified_gmt":"2014-11-05T22:18:18","slug":"kids_and_marriage","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2006\/10\/10\/kids_and_marriage.html","title":{"rendered":"Kids and Marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"

One of the arguments that keeps coming up in discussions of gay marriage (or legal approximations thereof) is the idea that marriage is for the rearing and protection of children. <\/em>I.e, society and the state offer favorable status to married couples because they are presumably having kids and providing a stable, sheltered existence for them.<\/p>\n

Now there’s a kernel of truth there — though it’s wildly oversimplistic. If nothing else, marital benefits do not at all track to actual child-bearing or child-rearing. Thousands marry with no intent (or sometimes capability) to have or raise kids. Parents can be the most awful, abusive monsters in the world, such that the state removes their kids from their custody — but those parents will still be allowed to inherit automatically from each other, make medical decisions for each other,
\nfile jointly, etc., all exclusive of their actual “taking care of kids” status. <\/p>\n

But beyond that, the people making such an argument often as not are also busy pointing (indirectly, if they’re discreet) to the Bible as the moral foundation of how society should order itself, Which is ironic, because marriage isn’t fundamentally presented in the Bible as an institution for the rearing and protection of children<\/em>. Children don’t even factor into the primary statements made about marriage … which just happened to have been lectionary readings this past Sunday:<\/p>\n

\n

Genesis 2:18-24<\/a>:<\/p>\n

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. <\/p>\n

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. <\/p>\n

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.<\/p>\n

Mark 10:2-9<\/a>:<\/p>\n

<\/span>And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. <\/p>\n

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Neither God the Creator nor Jesus says, “Men and women ought to cleave to each other so they can raise babies to be good, productive, morally straight individuals.” Marriage is couched here solely<\/em> as the individuals joining together, as helpful partners, because, “it is not good that the man should be alone.”<\/p>\n

Now, I’m not here to preach these (or other passages) as the final word on the matter — for one thing, folks can turn around and start noting about the genders being described (which opens a longer discussion), and for another thing there’s that whole “divorce” issue (which is also a post for another time). <\/p>\n

My point is, though, that if the opponents of gay marriage or domestic partnerships want to argue that, sociologically<\/em> or socio-biologically<\/em>, marriage between man and woman has certain unique benefits toward children that means that it should remain a uniquely heterosexual institution, they are welcome to do so (and be debated on the subject). Except that raises all sorts of other issues about how society might want to “tweak” marriage “for the children,” and most of the people involved
\nin so arguing find assertions from sociology and other squishy sciences to be anathema.<\/p>\n

But on the other hand, if they also want to claim that marriage is a divinely-ordained institution, <\/em>steeped in the Bible as the paramount relationship all the way back to Genesis, then they can’t have it both ways. Marriage, the “cleaving” of the two together, is not<\/em> fundamentally presented in the Bible as being for or about children<\/em>, but about two individuals<\/em> becoming deeply, divinely-ordained partners. <\/p>\n

And we can take the debate on from there. Thus endeth the lesson.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

One of the arguments that keeps coming up in discussions of gay marriage (or legal approximations thereof) is the idea that marriage is for the rearing and protection of children….<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_seopress_analysis_target_kw":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[25,14,718,27],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-9922","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-gay-stuff","category-love-and-marriage","category-marriage-equality","category-religion"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":10358,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2007\/02\/07\/the_logical_conclusion.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":0},"title":"The logical conclusion","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 7-Feb-07 8:25am","format":false,"excerpt":"Last year, the Wasington State Supreme Court ruled against gay marriages, ruling (reluctantly) in Andersen v. King County to uphold its state Defense of Marriage Act, asserting that the state...","rel":"","context":"In "LGBTQ &c"","block_context":{"text":"LGBTQ &c","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/gay-stuff"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":5235,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2004\/04\/22\/amen_brother_2.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":1},"title":"Amen, brother","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 22-Apr-04 12:56pm","format":false,"excerpt":"How has fatherhood changed this guy? People who don't have have kids often think about children as a matter of what they require from you (time, money, attention), which are...","rel":"","context":"In "Love & Marriage"","block_context":{"text":"Love & Marriage","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/personal\/love-and-marriage"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":9793,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2006\/11\/01\/you_keep_using_that_word.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":2},"title":"“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”","author":"***Dave","date":"Wed 1-Nov-06 9:09am","format":false,"excerpt":"Most amusing reason to oppose gay marriage to come out of this year's political debate, out of a debate in Florida's governor race, featuring Republican Charlie Crist. Crist, who currently...","rel":"","context":"In "LGBTQ &c"","block_context":{"text":"LGBTQ &c","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/gay-stuff"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":28634,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2012\/07\/17\/the-horrifying-evils-of-kids-learning-gays-exist-and-eek-love-each-other.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":3},"title":"The Horrifying Evils of Kids Learning Gays Exist and (Eek!) Love Each Other!","author":"***Dave","date":"Tue 17-Jul-12 10:55pm","format":false,"excerpt":"The Horrifying Evils of Kids Learning Gays Exist and (Eek!) Love Each Other!I really don't get it.First off, most debate in this area -- and by debate I mean fear-mongering propaganda -- tends to be along the line of, \"If we allow gay marriage, then our children will be asking\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":44673,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2014\/08\/28\/marriage-isnt-a-right-its-a-way-to-control-heterosexuals.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":4},"title":"Marriage isn't a right, it's a way to control heterosexuals","author":"***Dave","date":"Thu 28-Aug-14 8:41am","format":false,"excerpt":"That seems to be the core argument made by\u00a0Indiana Solicitor General Thomas Fisher before the 7th Circuit. Sure, marriage comes with all sorts of societal and legal benefits, but the state isn't required to extend it to gays because, well, gay couples can already adopt in Indiana, and, those benefits\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":51667,"url":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/2015\/07\/03\/so-what-kind-of-traditional-marriage-does-gay-marriage-undermine.html","url_meta":{"origin":9922,"position":5},"title":"So what kind of "traditional marriage" does gay marriage undermine?","author":"***Dave","date":"Fri 3-Jul-15 6:26pm","format":false,"excerpt":"An interesting consideration of part of what's behind the \"marriage equality threatens traditional marriage\" argument.'It\u2019s not because straight people won\u2019t want to get married if gays are doing it, too. It\u2019s because it redefines marriage as an institution of love instead of oppression.'I.e., the traditional part that is threatened is\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "~PlusPosts"","block_context":{"text":"~PlusPosts","link":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/category\/blogging\/plusposts"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9922","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=9922"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9922\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":46700,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9922\/revisions\/46700"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=9922"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=9922"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hill-kleerup.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=9922"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}