Doyce ran Kate, Margie, Katherine (!), Jackie and me through a few encounters in a beginning “intro” scenario using the D&D 4e rules. Thoughts:
- It’s basically still D&D. Yeah, there are some odd trope changes, and the rules have been simplified and “game”ified a bit, but it’s still clearly D&D (and I say that as someone whose played multiple editions of same).
- The intro scenario is challenging largely because some of the biggest challenges in the rules — understanding movement and combat sequence — are vastly complicated by outdoor battles and shifty kobolds.
- Mages (at a low level) are much simpler (and fun) to play. Thieves are much more tactically complicated (and powerful).
- The changes into “at will” and “each encounter” and “daily” powers — including spells — is a nice re-engineering, IMO.
- The game, to the level we’ve gone to, remains combat-centric and crunchy, really requiring use of miniatures (though still abstract enough to avoid use of facing).
- The interactions between different powers — for each of the characters, and between them — was interestingly exception-driven and (for all that the overall rules structure has been simplified) complicated. In some ways, sort of like playing Cosmic Encounter, where every action influences everything else in sometimes unexpected ways.
- Everyone, every class got a chance to shine in the intro.
Overall (and I’m sure I’ll be pondering this a bit more until I play again) a good time. Glad to have played, look forward to more.
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I do find it interesting that the reviews of the Players Handbook on Amazon have an inverse bell curve in ranks — i.e., people tend to love it (simpler! easier! more fun!) or hate it (leaves out X! too generic! too constrained!).
Yeah, I like many of the changes, I still need to go a bit more in depth into the DMG though.
I hadn’t played D&D regularly in a while, just some sessions here and there, no real campaigns. But my son got excited about v4 and ran us through the intro. We started a campaign as soon as he got pre-release PDF’s of the Player’s Handbook. So, I’ve had a few weeks to digest it.
To me, it seems a lot more MMORPG-ish than the past versions. That makes sense considering the fact that online games weren’t around before and that they’re supposed to be releasing software to play v4 online. The “healing surge” concept, for example, feels like everyone has a power meter. Not necessarily a bad thing. Just an observation.
Also, it’s waaaaay easier to feel powerful at 1st level than prior versions. When our regular group played back in the stone ages, we started at 1st level a few times then decided never to do that again. Any new campaign always had people begin somewhere between 3rd and 5th level. I like the fact that we’re not useless starting out, and we’re already pushing 3rd level after 3 or 4 Sundays, but I wonder what kind of supergod campaign this will turn into before long.
You’re right, though, it still feels like good ole D&D. And it was the first time I’ve gotten to squish a kobold in years! 🙂
I really like 4E and I haven’t played or run it yet! (first session this Tuesday!) Here are a few observations:
-Yes, it’s informed by MMOs and CCGs, but it’s neither of those things, because the environment reacts in ways that neither of those other genres even could, and that’s the lasting appeal of P&P RPGs.
-Frankly, the MMO and CCG elements are what wil turn D& D back into the entry drug of P & P RPGing.
-Giving 1st level characters more power to start and slowing the ramp up in power was one of the best design decisions the Devs could have made. It’s immediately satisfying for the players and reduces long term headaches for the GM post level 5 when the power levels began to spiral out of control in previous editions. (Once the PCs got Disintigrate or Death TOuch it was all over.)
-I love the (approximately) 10 encounters = 1 level. THat means ever 2-3 sessions the party levels. This is an almost direct steal from MMOs, and another great decision. There’s nothing quite as immediately rewarding to the player than levelling and getting more cool powers!
-Two thumbs up, WotC!!!!
I think the 10:1 ratio is a good one, too — though I might adjust it based on how groups play. We got through, um, two encounters last night, which would make 5 sessions to get to lvl 2. A big part of that, of course, was learning the system — but I was reminded how immediately slow motion things get in D&D-style combat (it was driven home watching Katherine’s reaction, too). Familiarity — and a fundamentally simpler combat system — will help that.
The idea that 1st level characters are “heroes” already in their capability is an excellent one as well. I look forward to seeing how that all plays out (so to speak).
Doyce posts a much lengthier log of our play.
Kitten’s impression.
I would agree with the general sentiments in here. I’ve been running my wife and 9-year old through Keep on the Shadowfell, and they’ve been having a really good time as well.
What I’ve found is that once we’re up and going, we can get through a combat that took about 30 minutes in 3.5 in about 10 minutes in 4.0, but with *more fun*, and everyone getting to participate in a useful way.
I see this as a combination of boiling D&D down to it’s essence in terms of rules, while at the same time spreading that essence out among the classes in a balanced way…
I don’t think 4th edition is necessarily a horrible product, but I don’t think it is particularly good either as a veteran gamer. I call this edition AD&HD, because it obviously caters to the current video game generation with its focus of making every character class feel overly equal and the core rules seeming geared to 4th graders who have never so much as cracked any other D&D book in their life and who knows very little about the realm of fantasy literature from which D&D sprang. MMORPG elements have definitely crept into this edition of D&D, so much so that it really is only accurate to say that this is D&D in the most basic of senses. This edition just does not seem to be geared to have the lasting power of the older editions, especially first and second edition. The characters are too constrained and feel too similar. This would be a great introductory version for younger players, but as something viable for a group of seasoned gamers who want variety and true mobility, it falls flat IMHO. Of course quality of roleplaying is the true secret to longtime enjoyment of any Pen and Paper RPG. Sadly with this version though, I believe WoTC has tried to do too much to shift the entire focus into a combat and strategy orientated game and I think that the retainment of future longtime loyal players will be hurt in the longrun.
What are the particular “quality of role-playing” elements of 1, 2, 3, or 3.5 that are lacking in 4e?
Top 10 arguments I’ve heard about how 4e “destroys role-playing” (emphasis mine):
1) X (Gnomes, Bards, Drow, Half-Carrots, etc.) is missing. I can’t play what I always play, therefore, it cramps my “role-playing”.
2) There are no “fluff” skills. I can’t take 5 ranks in Craft (Basketweaving), thus the system doesn’t let me express my character.
3) My character must now be useful in a combat. I can no longer make a character who is useless in combat, so it cramps my role-playing of the sickly half-demon with the penchant for crayon-chewing.
4) The book gives a whole lot of options for what to do round by round in a combat situation, but very few options (2-3 skills) for what to do when I’m talking in character. Essentially, it continues the proud tradition of the dicelessness of D&D for non-combat situations.
5) Because the combat system offers more options, it slows combat down for new players, thus leaving less time for role-playing.
6) The combat system rewards PCs for cooperative action, thus punishing me from running off and stabbing the bad guy on my own. I now must discuss my “tactics” with the rest of the party, which cramps the chaotic nature of how I like to “role-play” my character.
7) I can no longer have my spellcaster take a bunch of extra spells that help define the deep inner angst of his upbringing as a blind bookbinder’s illegitimate son. I now am limited to Spells which are actually useful in combat, and Rituals that are actually useful at all.
8) It’s hard for me to make my Fighter have different abilities in combat that are still cool. That guy across the table has the same powers as me. If everyone is special, no one is.
9) The items and monsters are heavy on stats and combat abilities, and short on descriptive fluff. I must now invent my own idea of how they look.
10) The guy sitting across from me is a half-demon and/or a humanoid dragon. How can I take this seriously?
Um … yeah.
Well-summarized.