‘At least three times in recent days, as part of his response to President Obama’s “You didn’t build that” peroration, Romney has told campaign audiences variations of the following: “When a young person makes the honor roll, I know he took a school bus to get to the school, but I don’t give the bus driver credit for the honor roll.”
When he delivered that line in Manassas on Saturday with Ryan in tow, Romney drew wild applause. He went on to say that a person who gets a promotion and raise at work, and who commutes to the office by car, doesn’t owe anything to the clerk at the motor vehicles department who processes driver’s licenses.’
He just doesn’t get it.
No, the school bus driver doesn’t get credit for the honor roll. _But without the school bus driver, that young person may not have made it to school._ He may have had to go to a closer school that didn’t serve him as well. He might have had to walk, or get there an hour or two early (or late) because that’s the only time someone could drive him. Without that school bus driver, and the school system that paid for the driver and the bus with his parents’ (and other local and state citizens’) tax money, he might never have achieved that honor roll.
You can draw the same web of social dependency on the DMV clerk, too.
We achieve things, but we achieve many (most? even all?) of them within a societal framework. It doesn’t take away from personal accomplishment (or responsibility) to acknowledge that, and support it, and foster it so that others have the opportunities that we had.
Given a choice between “We’re all in this together” vs. “I’ve got mine”, I know which society I live in, and which one I want to live in.
(h/t +Shannon Turlington)
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Romney and Ryan’s disdain for the working class
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My husband and I were saying just this at dinner last night. You're right. Romney doesn't get it. He doesn't understand social dependency because he can just buy whatever he wants. His children never had to rely on the bus to get to school. I don't think he even understands how offensive he is being. There are many school bus drivers out there (and the like) who are proud of their jobs and feel that they are contributing something important. How do they like being told that they just don't count?
Sure we achieve things in a societal setting, but that doesn't mean everyone in that society was responsible for getting you where you are.
Dave, you wear glasses…..are you going to credit the person who made your glasses with your success in life? I mean, if you didn't have glasses, you couldn't see as well (i'm not sure if you're as blind as I am without) and, therefore, might not have been able to see the board in college, therefore might not have done as well, etc., etc.
It sounds like the "Butterfly Effect" to the nth degree.
When I was in school I took a bus but, if I missed the bus…..my parents took me to school.
I think the thing that bothered me the most about Obama's "You didn't build that" speech was that it was just another way of telling people (mainly business owners) that they "have to pay their fair share"….'fair share', of course deemed by the government.
Mark, because we live in a society where different people have different roles, it means that we don't have to fulfill all of our needs for ourselves. The bus driver drives my kid to school so I don't have to. I don't have to grow my own food, or make my own clothes, etc. That gives me more time and opportunity to be successful at what I really want to do and am best at. We are all dependent on one another, like it or not. We're all benefiting in countless ways from this great society that we built, and so we should all pay our fair share. People deserve to get paid for their labor, whatever that labor is. I think what bothers me most about the counter-argument is that so many people seem to expect all these benefits for nothing. That's a fantasy.
Mark, I'm going to be thankful for for the folks who have worked on the research and development of corrective optics, on the manufacture of my glasses, the people who work at the opticians, the optometrist, my parents for seeing to it I was able to have eye checks and get glasses …
Are they responsible for my material success? On the most commonly considered level, no. But without them, no, I wouldn't be where i was (I'd be eaten by a cave bear I never saw coming, most likely). I have a moral, ethical, societal responsibility for them and their welfare, just as they have for me for what I contribute to their well-being.
So, yes, I get paid for my hard work each day. But they do, indirectly, get some of that salary through my taxes (and, in some cases, charitable contributions), and I don't have a problem with that.
I totally agree that everyone should pay their fair share. Again, my issue is with the "fair share" idea and who decides what, exactly, that is.
Is it fair that someone works 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for years to build a company….then starts reaping the monetary rewards of said company, only to have someone (the government) tell him/her that they now need to give a chunk of those hard earned rewards to someone who decides that they don't want to work. Not can't….but won't.
Where is that person's 'fair share' in the equation. There isn't one because they're not contributing. I see nothing wrong with charity and giving as long as the people receiving it are truly in need.
Another thing about the "you didn't build that" is that, going along those lines of logic, you would also have to credit the man you walked by on the street who didn't mug you as someone who contributed to your success.
While it's true that no man is an island, he can do things on his own as well as achieve without any help.
Certainly the debate is over what is a "fair share." And, ultimately, that question is decided by a societal consensus, at the ballot box.
The issue that I see today is that too many people think there is no fair share. That "I built it, all by myself, so anything taken from me is theft." It's exemplified, in a small (in multiple senses of the word) way by Romney's comment about the school bus driver.
I'm not sure why you've suddenly turned the conversation into taxation to benefit people who won't work, vs. people who can't work because of disability, people who can't find sufficient (or sufficiently paid) work to keep their family fed, people who can't find work, etc. I have no problem with the principle of making an individual's social welfare support somehow contingent on their efforts to be a contributing member of society. Many welfare programs (such as TANF) have just such provisions built into them.
We don't usually credit people for their societal contribution of not being a criminal, though.
The absolute question of whether any person can do thinks on their own without any help is going to depend on what "help" means, I should think (as the discussion above indicates). In addition to the Donne quote you allude to, I'd drag in Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., to suggest that "Taxes are what we pay for civilized society." If your achievement was possible because of that civilized society, then even if the lion's share of credit and profit are due you for it, taxes are an appropriate outcome as well.
I haven't come across anyone, yet, who thinks that there's 'no fair share'. I'm sure they're out there, but I've yet to see comments like that.
I didn't realize I was switching the conversation towards taxation at all (wasn't my intent), I was trying to illustrate the fairness regarding the makers and the takers. If someone can't work, that's a totally different story.
No, we don't usually credit people for not being criminals, but I can honestly see that being brought up going along similar lines of logic.
I have no problem with taxes, paying them, or otherwise. Again "fair share" needs to be defined and it needs to be across the board, in my opinion.
I generally find the division between "makers" and "takers" used by folks who overemphasize the latter and are selective over whom they include in the former. It's a turn of phrase originated by Ayn Rand, who truly was a "there's no such thing as a fair share" kind of person.
I'll keep my eyes out for more "I've got mine, you go pound sand" no-fair-share types to call to your attention.
Actually, sure, if you see that kind of thinking, let me know.
So, if one person in a thousand is undeserving, the other 999 shouldn’t get anything? Since somebody will always thing any given “fair share” is unfair, there’s no point in trying to determine the fairest system possible? If not the government, who decides what a fair share would be? Left to individuals, I think the answer would generally be “I pay nothing, the rest of you pay what you want.” I don’t see how that would work. Shall we make taxes and government fees voluntary to avoid “unfairness”?
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.
— Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) English philosopher
Leviathan, Pt. I, ch. 13 (1651)
You don’t have to make a thankyou speech to the bus driver – his thanks is his wages. those are paid out of taxation. That tax exists because of governments taking a ‘fair share’. This means kids go to school, and get an education. Those schools exist because of that fair share – a school isn’t just the teachers. Its the buildings (so you need builders) it’s the caretaker, its the myriad of people who make sure the damn thing runs.
Try getting a job if you are uneducated. Thus education leads to employment, that leads to taxes, which pay for schools, lediang to education…