Of course Batman could beat Supes, unless the latter simply went effectively nuclear on the Earth … which not only would he never do, but which I still wouldn’t bet Bats would have a contingency plan up his sleeve.
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Superman vs. Batman
Discuss. Of course Batman could beat Supes, unless the latter simply went effectively nuclear on the Earth … which not only would he never do, but which I still wouldn’t…
Which opinion I heartily agree with (though it drives Randy nuts 🙂
Bottom line, the man fights dirty and Supes is monumentally stupid honorable. 🙂
Batman, no question. He had the utility belt.
My long-time question: Ruben Kincaid v. Larry Tate. I think Larry Tate would have a height and reach advantage, but Ruben would fight dirty (i.e. using a golf club, etc.)
I don’t know — Larry could be pretty cut-throat, too.
Those websites were ludicrous (at least in this one regard). Dragging in the cartoon show and using pre-Crisis arguments totally nullifies any credibility they might have had.
Besides, we’ve already seen that Batman had contingency plans for all the Justice League’s members (in one of the best story arcs of the current JLA series, “Tower of Babel,” issues 43-46).
Interestingly, this “debate” coincides with the Superman/Batman limited series, in which we see each of them regarding the other as inferior in the fight against Metallo (as mentioned in ***Dave’s latest comics reviews).
Vs. Supes played by a gamer, even within the total honor straightjacket? Fuck no. Because one nanosecond after whatever trap Bats prepared for him starts to take effect, Supes is gone. Examines things from orbit. Hits the Batcave with a rock from orbit after getting Alfred out. Wears whatever armor he needs to. Uses his superspeed and senses constantly. And it’s not even out of character, because he knows how dangerous Batman is.
JLA Supes? Sure. He’s a moron. He should be constantly causing sonic booms from slapping his forehead and yelling, “Doh!”
Supes in his own book? Semi-moron. Almost a challenge for the Bat. Almost.
Hell, Batman, plain and simple. Miller proved this beyond a shadow of doubt.
You know what I always wanted to read: Miller’s aborted Dr. Strange. There were ads for it right before he took over Daredevil’s writing the first time around.
I also felt Miller wrote the definitive Captain America in his second run of DD; in one panel, he totally nailed the character.
[sigh] It’ll never happen now, alas.
Hmm… I’d like to see that Captain America panel… wonder if it’s in the stack of DD trades Dave’s leant me.
Supes played by a gamer would lose because only a munchkin would want to play Supes over Bats, and munchkins have no tactics 🙂
Could you play him for a one-off, just to beat Bats? Sure. But if the conflict had to come as part of a six-month series in which you have to play Supes EVERY WEEK, just for the payoff?
Ugh. Boring. The only person willing to do that would be the one that could get off on six months of staring at the Strength score on the character sheet and secretly rubbing himself against a table leg.
The compromize would be Martian Manhunter, but he’d lose too because of the LAME weakness.
Ugh. Last comment on this and then I really need to not have another ‘who could beat whom’ discussion for about a year.
Two ways to beat the iron-willed tactician who’s willing to play Supes as intelligent for a long while just to prove a point:
1. Wait. Bottom line (and a theme of Blade of the Immortal) — people with lots of power get lazy. Eventually, even the tactician will hit a problem where using a Power is just SO MUCH EASIER than thinking. Wait some more — as time goes by, the situations where it’s easier to Use a Power than Think become more and more numerous. Wait some more, until thinking just isn’t efficient from a time-management point of view. At that point, you win. Bats beats Supes because Supes (and really most anyone else in JLA-the-organization-not-the-comic) has 14 gazillion alternatives to thinking. Bats doesn’t.
2. Build a place that will kill Supes. Find something Supes is deeply, deeply invested in emotional. Insert the latter into the former. Repeat this four to six times, then arrange for him to find out about all of these places/things the same moment. (Tactician or not, if Supes is played in character, he simply will eventually expose himself to the deadly thing/space/gizmo for the greater good.)
Scott, yeah, I remember the ads for the Miller Dr. Strange. We did get, at least, his take on the character in an annual of some sort (might even have been DS) — lots of Ditkoesque visuals. Good stuff.
Doyce, I think you nailed it here. Because Supes has so many alternatives to thinking (“Hitting stuff really hard works 9 times out of 10”), he tends to use them. Hell, when you’re nigh invulnerable and capable of ripping apart tanks with your bare hands, it’s literally a no-brainer. (Heck, Supes’ heat vision is world-class, and he hardly uses it, for the same reason).
I don’t recall the Cap panel in DD, though I don’t doubt it’s there, somewhere. Miller kept DD a pretty closed shop vs the rest of the MU — with reason, since DD is really a pretty weak character, albeit an interesting one in the right hands.
Indeed, you could probably tie those two themes together. Good writers do well on DD because they have to think. Simply having DD going out and beating up on people is a dead end, because there are so many people he can’t beat up. So you get folks like Miller, or Bendis, being able to do some truly world-class work by working around that weakness, not through it. Whereas even the best tales of Supes, Wonder Woman, or GL end up being “I hit them real good.”
An overgeneralization, to be sure, but something to think about. (Hmmmm. Miller on GL. Bendis on Superman. Hmmmm.)
The Miller/Captain America panel was in the 220s run of the book, when DD was in Hell’s Kitchen, somewhere around the end of that story. I think it was when the Kingpin took him apart. I’ve never seen a writer capture the perfect essence of a character in one panel before.
Miller drew Doc Strange in 1980’s Amazing Spider-Man Annual #14. Dr. Doom and Dormammu invoked the Bend Sinister!
That’s it! Good stuff, as I recall.
(He also drew an FF (?) annual that introduced Karma, who immediately got sucked into the New Mutants. Also fine.)
What a bunch of morons!
Batman doesn’t stand a chance.
First off Superman isn’t a moron. He is quite smart and more important than that he is outrageously powerful
Even if he is written in character he should take Batman down in less than a second.
Frank Miller is pure crap. Yes it is obvious that if you ignore all of Superman abilities and smarts Batman would beat him. He turned Superman into a pansy to allow Bataman victory. Superman the lap dog of a facist government? What the hell does that mean? Oh man, If I ever see that bastard in person I will kick his ass.
Superman would kill batman in less than a second. Superman isnt stupid either, The planet krypton knowledge is light years more advanced than planet Earth, which qualifies him as being smarter. You guys say he’s too good. Well what would Batman do if say superman is on Red Kryptonite? Batman is the gay one he lives with a little boy.
Right. Superman would taken down Batman in a second. That’s why he’s already imprisoned every two-bit costumed creep in Gotham and Metropolis without batting an eyelash.
Right.