And last(ish) because you're probably sick to death about reading it from me, and I'm sick to death (and at heart) about writing about it. Because today I've not only been posting the stuff I have, I've been on a half-dozen other threads in the comments, arguing with people who see nothing wrong about this — who very baldly say, "I allow my elected officials to do whatever they think they need to in order to keep this country secure. And if that means we are a country that is hated and feared, that's ultimately the only way for us to survive."
And I keep coming back to that Abby Mann quote, "But survival as what?"
So read the below, please. George's preface holds what I believe in my head to be the case for how to deal with that ticking bomb / existential thread danger that the pro-torture folk use. He puts it at least as well as I ever have managed to. Do what you need to do, knowing that you're breaking the law and will be punished. Because if the stakes are that high and you're really a "hero," that's what you do.
And then read the Jim Wright post below it. Because it says everything else I think and feel on the subject, and rather than getting into long arguments on the matter I should simply post a link to that, because if it's not convincing then nothing I can say will be. Read it.
And to all a good night.
Originally shared by +George Wiman:
It always comes down to that ticking bomb, doesn't it. What if your son or daughter were in that city!
That person you have shacked to the chair is someone's son or daughter, too. Lose sight of that, and you become something else entirely. But OK, for the sake of argument…
#Torture is a "You had better be right" situation. You torture someone and you don't find the bomb/terror cell/innocent kidnapped daughter? You should accept your punishment.
Suppose it "worked", though? You got the information, saved the city, saved the innocent child, whatever?
You would certainly be willing to die to save a city, no? Would you go to prison to save a city? Would saving the city be enough, if you weren't also feted as a hero? Perhaps punished for torturing someone?
And in such a case, perhaps the President would grant you clemency. A pardon. But would you refuse to save the city otherwise? Would you let all those people die because something "unfair" might happen to you?
The legal prohibition against torture (the one you are violating in your Jack Bauer fantasy) is there to keep the city, and the country, worth saving. This is why it really doesn't matter if torture "works" or not.
Gratifying to read, here, an experienced military officer who says something similar to what I've always thought.
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